Rockola 440 Gripper and Magazine Motor Blowing Fuses

[robert]

Hey Everyone,

I seem to keep blowing the "1.6 28VDC Mech" fuse within seconds when
the magazine motor or gripper motor-runs.

Because I don't have anymore 1.6A fuses I have been using 1.5A ones. I
realize that this would be more prone to blowing, but there has to be
something wrong here for it to go that quickly.

Would the motors be causing this? How can I check to see if the motors
are okay? When I turn the motors manually via the little knob on the
bottom of them, they turn easily and do not seem gummed up.


Any help would be greatly appreciated.


Thanks,
Robert

[Rob in NYC]

Robert, all I needed was "Rock-Ola" and "gripper motor" -they are
notorious for developing shorted armature turns. From the early
1950's models, right on through the later 80's. If it is blowing
quickly, that is the cause.

The only other possible cause is that the cam switches are faulty and
causing the motor to overtravel and jam. That will be obvious when
you turn the motor shaft.

Rob/NYC

[robert]

Robert, all I needed was "Rock-Ola" and "gripper motor"  -they are
notorious for developing shorted armature turns.  From the early
1950's models, right on through the later 80's. If it is blowing
quickly, that is the cause.
The only other possible cause is that the cam switches are faulty and
causing the motor to overtravel and jam.  That will be obvious when
you turn the motor shaft.
Rob/NYC

Hi Rob. Thanks so much for the reply! Is there a way to fix the
motors? I tested the cam switches and they seemed okay, and I also
aligned them according to the manual. I can always replace them to be
safe.


Robert

[Rob in NYC]

Robert, motors can be rewound, while that might be the most reliable
route, it may be cheaper to locate a known-good replacement via one of
the ad's in Always Jukin http://www.alwaysjukin.com/ D/L a sample
issue and look over the classifieds -the same sellers are there every
month.

As for the microswitches, if the motor isn't overtravelling and
jamming at either end of it's travel the switches are not the problem.

If you have a meter capable of measuring amps you might hook it up in
series with the fuse, but I'am pretty sure you have the classic
problem of excessive current drain from shorted armature turns.

Rob/NYC

[John Robertson]

Post by Rob in NYC
Robert, motors can be rewound, while that might be the most reliable
route, it may be cheaper to locate a known-good replacement via one of
the ad's in Always Jukin http://www.alwaysjukin.com/ D/L a sample
issue and look over the classifieds -the same sellers are there every
month.
As for the microswitches, if the motor isn't overtravelling and
jamming at either end of it's travel the switches are not the problem.
If you have a meter capable of measuring amps you might hook it up in
series with the fuse, but I'am pretty sure you have the classic
problem of excessive current drain from shorted armature turns.
Rob/NYC

The gripper assembly may be gummed up too. This will cause the motor to
draw more current than normal.

Turning the gripper motor shaft with your fingers should operate the
gripper bow through the entire cycle - picking up and replacing records
- without feeling like it is jamming up.

The gripper arm should feel slightly loose when resting, and the record
pin should feel snappy when it is picking up the record (at rest is is
solid). The gripper arm should drop when released not go slowly down
(indicating gummed up oil/grease).

Info on taking the assembly apart is here:

http://flippers.com/Rockola-tips.html

John :-#)#

[robert]

Thanks John,

I cleaned the outside of the mechanism but have no idea as to what it
looks like inside. I'll take a look at that as well but I would think
that if the motor is easy to turn using the armature knob it wouldn't
be gummed up.


Robert

Post by John Robertson
The gripper assembly may be gummed up too. This will cause the motor to
draw more current than normal.
Turning the gripper motor shaft with your fingers should operate the
gripper bow through the entire cycle - picking up and replacing records
- without feeling like it is jamming up.
The gripper arm should feel slightly loose when resting, and the record
pin should feel snappy when it is picking up the record (at rest is is
solid). The gripper arm should drop when released not go slowly down
(indicating gummed up oil/grease).
http://flippers.com/Rockola-tips.html
John :-#)#
--
    (Please post followups or tech enquiries to the newsgroup)
  John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9
  Call [phone] or Fax [phone] (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
                     www.flippers.com
       "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

[robert]

Thanks for the advice Rob.

I'll take a look at the ads and see if I can find the them. In the
meantume, I'm going to try taking them apart and clean them out and
see what that does. I've read that people have had success with doing
that. Either motor, gripper or magazine blow the fuse. It's just kind
of odd that BOTH motors could fail at the same time.


Robert

Post by Rob in NYC
Robert, motors can be rewound, while that might be the most reliable
route, it may be cheaper to locate a known-good replacement via one of
the ad's in Always Jukinhttp://www.alwaysjukin.com/  D/L a sample
issue and look over the classifieds -the same sellers are there every
month.
As for the microswitches, if the motor isn't overtravelling and
jamming at either end of it's travel the switches are not the problem.
If you have a meter capable of measuring amps you might hook it up in
series with the fuse, but I'am pretty sure you have the classic
problem of excessive current drain from shorted armature turns.
Rob/NYC

[Rob in NYC]

Robert, while having two defective motors may seem odd. The fact is
that they were both made by the same maker and frankly, cheaply, in
keeping with Rock-Ola's policy of simple machines that didn't cost a
lot.

The circuit involved is very simple: unfiltered DC feeding two brush
motors one at a time. If you can access a meter to actually read the
amps being consumed that will show what is going on.

It wouldn't hurt to open the motors and clean out all the carbon from
the brushes and use a small stiff brush to 'comb' out carbon from the
individual commutator segments (the steps the brushes ride on) but I
doubt that will make any significant difference.

Almost every R-O phono that I found had a larger fuse in the motor
supply and the reason as I repeatedly found was failing motors.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but, there are plenty of motors
around.

Rob/NYC

I'll take a look at the ads and see if I can find the them.  In the
meantume, I'm going to try taking them apart and clean them out and
see what that does.  I've read that people have had success with doing
that.  Either motor, gripper or magazine blow the fuse. It's just kind
of odd that BOTH motors could fail at the same time.
Robert

[robert]

Thanks for the advice Rob.

I called one of the ads in the classified section of Always Jukin', my
wife's boss gave me a copy. (Thanks again, that was a great idea)
Ironically, the the guy I called about purchasing two motors,
suggested that I try a few things before spending the money for the
motors.

1. Running the motors while disconnected from each of their
respective gear mechanisms to see what would happen without a load.

I tried it and it still blew the fuse.

2. Clean the motor out:

So far I took the Gripper motor apart and it was filthy inside.
I cleaned it out but need to do the same with the carousel motor.
Once I do that I'll try it again and see what happens.


I certainly appreciate your advice. But I would like to see if there
is any way that I may be able to fix this first before having to
purchase another set of motors. On one hand this is frustrating, but
on the other, I am learning A LOT about the way these things work and
it's really quite interesting :)


Robert

Post by Rob in NYC
Robert, while having two defective motors may seem odd. The fact is
that they were both made by the same maker and frankly, cheaply, in
keeping with Rock-Ola's policy of simple machines that didn't cost a
lot.
The circuit involved is very simple: unfiltered DC feeding two brush
motors one at a time.  If you can access a meter to actually read the
amps being consumed that will show what is going on.
It wouldn't hurt to open the motors and clean out all the carbon from
the brushes and use a small stiff brush to 'comb' out carbon from the
individual commutator segments (the steps the brushes ride on) but I
doubt that will make any significant difference.
Almost every R-O phono that I found had a larger fuse in the motor
supply and the reason as I repeatedly found was failing motors.
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but, there are plenty of motors
around.
Rob/NYC

I'll take a look at the ads and see if I can find the them.  In the
meantume, I'm going to try taking them apart and clean them out and
see what that does.  I've read that people have had success with doing
that.  Either motor, gripper or magazine blow the fuse. It's just kind
of odd that BOTH motors could fail at the same time.
Robert

[Tony Miklos]

Post by robert
Thanks for the advice Rob.
I called one of the ads in the classified section of Always Jukin', my
wife's boss gave me a copy. (Thanks again, that was a great idea)
Ironically, the the guy I called about purchasing two motors,
suggested that I try a few things before spending the money for the
motors.
1. Running the motors while disconnected from each of their
respective gear mechanisms to see what would happen without a load.
I tried it and it still blew the fuse.
So far I took the Gripper motor apart and it was filthy inside.
I cleaned it out but need to do the same with the carousel motor.
Once I do that I'll try it again and see what happens.
I certainly appreciate your advice. But I would like to see if there
is any way that I may be able to fix this first before having to
purchase another set of motors. On one hand this is frustrating, but
on the other, I am learning A LOT about the way these things work and
it's really quite interesting :)

Did you unplug both motors and see if the fuse blows without them? Did
you try plugging in one motor at a time to see which one is blowing the
fuse? It's possible but highly doubtful that both motors are bad...
unless it was used as a parts machine and the good motors taken out and
replaced with the bad ones. Besides, the two motors _never_ run at the
same time so unless the cam switches are screwed up, only one motor is
blowing the fuse at any given time. If both motors are trying to run at
the same time you have some other issues.

[robert]

Hi Tony,

I ran the machine for a couple of minutes with both motors
disconnected and it did not blow a fuse.

I connected the gripper motor that I had cleaned out previously and
ran the machine, only to blow the fuse within a few seconds. I
couldn't connect the carousel motor, because the brushes broke apart
during disassembly :(

The cam switches are aligned and from what I noticed, only one motor
runs at a time.



Robert

Post by robert
Thanks for the advice Rob.
I called one of the ads in the classified section of Always Jukin', my
wife's boss gave me a copy.  (Thanks again, that was a great idea)
Ironically, the the guy I called about purchasing two motors,
suggested that I try a few things before spending the money for the
motors.
1.  Running the motors while disconnected from each of their
respective gear mechanisms to see what would happen without a load.
      I tried it and it still blew the fuse.
      So far I took the Gripper motor apart and it was filthy inside.
I cleaned it out but need to do the same with the carousel motor.
Once I do that I'll try it again and see what happens.
I certainly appreciate your advice.  But I would like to see if there
is any way that I may be able to fix this first before having to
purchase another set of motors.  On one hand this is frustrating, but
on the other, I am learning A LOT about the way these things work and
it's really quite interesting :)

Did you unplug both motors and see if the fuse blows without them?  Did
you try plugging in one motor at a time to see which one is blowing the
fuse?  It's possible but highly doubtful that both motors are bad...
unless it was used as a parts machine and the good motors taken out and
replaced with the bad ones.  Besides, the two motors _never_ run at the
same time so unless the cam switches are screwed up, only one motor is
blowing the fuse at any given time.  If both motors are trying to run at
the same time you have some other issues.

[g0pkh]

Hi Robert

A while back I restored my first jukebox, A Rock-Ola 474 machine.

I too had problems with both of these motors.

I was really lucky and managed to find two brand new old stock armature
for them. And after a complete rebuild and regrease, they now ru
brilliantly.

They are 28V DC Motors. I tested mine by connecting them to a Benc
Variable Power Supply unit, and wound up the voltage slowly whil
monitoring the current. Mine were both taking in excess of 2A which i
the limit of my PSU. By the time I got to 20V DC

I found that after the rebuild the motors would run off load and consum
in the area of 500mA, while at the full 28V.

I didn't have a problem with shorted turns on mine. The problem I ha
was that the commutators (sections where the brushes connect th
armature) had a deep groove worn in them, plus the grease in th
gearboxes had congealed, and needed to be cleaned out completely, the
fully regreased.

Also with the armatures and brushes removed, you may like to check th
suppression capacitors (tubular devices connected across the motors) fo
a short circuit.

These capacitors are installed to reduce motor noise. Strangely th
motors in my machine did not have these fitted.

Hope this info helps

Pet


--
g0pkh

[robert]

Hi Pete,

I took the gripper motor apart, cleaned it out polished up the
communicator and thought that would solve the problem but when I
connected it and ran the machine it still blew a fuse :( The carousel
motor is beyond my repair ability so I think I'm going to have to get
a replacement anyway.

I don't see the capacitors on these particular motors. I have a
Rockola 483 that I plan on restoring (if I ever get this one done!)
that does have the caps on the motor.

The kicker is that these two motors are going to cost more than I paid
for the machine lol.


Robert

Post by g0pkh
Hi Robert
A while back I restored my first jukebox, A Rock-Ola 474 machine.
I too had problems with both of these motors.
I was really lucky and managed to find two brand new old stock armatures
for them. And after a complete rebuild and regrease, they now run
brilliantly.
They are 28V DC Motors. I tested mine by connecting them to a Bench
Variable Power Supply unit, and wound up the voltage slowly while
monitoring the current. Mine were both taking in excess of 2A which is
the limit of my PSU. By the time I got to 20V DC
I found that after the rebuild the motors would run off load and consume
in the area of 500mA, while at the full 28V.
I didn't have a problem with shorted turns on mine. The problem I had
was that the commutators (sections where the brushes connect the
armature) had a deep groove worn in them, plus the grease in the
gearboxes had congealed, and needed to be cleaned out completely, then
fully regreased.
Also with the armatures and brushes removed, you may like to check the
suppression capacitors (tubular devices connected across the motors) for
a short circuit.
These capacitors are installed to reduce motor noise. Strangely the
motors in my machine did not have these fitted.
Hope this info helps
Pete
--
g0pkh

[John Robertson]

Post by robert
Hi Pete,
I took the gripper motor apart, cleaned it out polished up the
communicator and thought that would solve the problem but when I
connected it and ran the machine it still blew a fuse :( The carousel
motor is beyond my repair ability so I think I'm going to have to get
a replacement anyway.
I don't see the capacitors on these particular motors. I have a
Rockola 483 that I plan on restoring (if I ever get this one done!)
that does have the caps on the motor.
The kicker is that these two motors are going to cost more than I paid
for the machine lol.

Before you replace the motors try running a thin flat blade between each
commutator on the armature. I have had motors that have too much carbon
jammed in between each commutator conductor leading to the appearance of
a shorted motor.

Do not use a blade like an Exacto, you need something thin and flat
ended to scrape the bottom of the grove between each conductor.
Polishing the faces of the commutator won't help that much.

John :-#)#

Post by robert
Robert

Post by g0pkh
Hi Robert
A while back I restored my first jukebox, A Rock-Ola 474 machine.
I too had problems with both of these motors.
I was really lucky and managed to find two brand new old stock armatures
for them. And after a complete rebuild and regrease, they now run
brilliantly.
They are 28V DC Motors. I tested mine by connecting them to a Bench
Variable Power Supply unit, and wound up the voltage slowly while
monitoring the current. Mine were both taking in excess of 2A which is
the limit of my PSU. By the time I got to 20V DC
I found that after the rebuild the motors would run off load and consume
in the area of 500mA, while at the full 28V.
I didn't have a problem with shorted turns on mine. The problem I had
was that the commutators (sections where the brushes connect the
armature) had a deep groove worn in them, plus the grease in the
gearboxes had congealed, and needed to be cleaned out completely, then
fully regreased.
Also with the armatures and brushes removed, you may like to check the
suppression capacitors (tubular devices connected across the motors) for
a short circuit.
These capacitors are installed to reduce motor noise. Strangely the
motors in my machine did not have these fitted.
Hope this info helps
Pete
--
g0pkh

[robert]

Hi John,

Okay I'll give it a shot and post back.


Robert

Post by John Robertson

Post by robert
Hi Pete,
I took the gripper motor apart, cleaned it out polished up the
communicator and thought that would solve the problem but when I
connected it and ran the machine it still blew a fuse :(  The carousel
motor is beyond my repair ability so I think I'm going to have to get
a replacement anyway.
I don't see the capacitors on these particular motors.  I have a
Rockola 483 that I plan on restoring (if I ever get this one done!)
that does have the caps on the motor.
The kicker is that these two motors are going to cost more than I paid
for the machine  lol.

Before you replace the motors try running a thin flat blade between each
commutator on the armature. I have had motors that have too much carbon
jammed in between each commutator conductor leading to the appearance of
a shorted motor.
Do not use a blade like an Exacto, you need something thin and flat
ended to scrape the bottom of the grove between each conductor.
Polishing the faces of the commutator won't help that much.
John :-#)#

Post by robert
Robert

Post by g0pkh
Hi Robert
A while back I restored my first jukebox, A Rock-Ola 474 machine.
I too had problems with both of these motors.
I was really lucky and managed to find two brand new old stock armatures
for them. And after a complete rebuild and regrease, they now run
brilliantly.
They are 28V DC Motors. I tested mine by connecting them to a Bench
Variable Power Supply unit, and wound up the voltage slowly while
monitoring the current. Mine were both taking in excess of 2A which is
the limit of my PSU. By the time I got to 20V DC
I found that after the rebuild the motors would run off load and consume
in the area of 500mA, while at the full 28V.
I didn't have a problem with shorted turns on mine. The problem I had
was that the commutators (sections where the brushes connect the
armature) had a deep groove worn in them, plus the grease in the
gearboxes had congealed, and needed to be cleaned out completely, then
fully regreased.
Also with the armatures and brushes removed, you may like to check the
suppression capacitors (tubular devices connected across the motors) for
a short circuit.
These capacitors are installed to reduce motor noise. Strangely the
motors in my machine did not have these fitted.
Hope this info helps
Pete
--
g0pkh

--
    (Please post followups or tech enquiries to the newsgroup)
  John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9
  Call [phone] or Fax [phone] (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
                     www.flippers.com
       "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."

[g0pkh]

Post by robert
Hi John
Okay I'll give it a shot and post back
Rober
Hi Pete,
I took the gripper motor apart, cleaned it out polished up th
communicator and thought that would solve the problem but when
connected it and ran the machine it still blew a fuse :( *The carouse
motor is beyond my repair ability so I think I'm going to have to ge
a replacement anyway.
I don't see the capacitors on these particular motors. *I have
Rockola 483 that I plan on restoring (if I ever get this one done!
that does have the caps on the motor.
The kicker is that these two motors are going to cost more than I pai
for the machine *lol.
Before you replace the motors try running a thin flat blade betwee
eac
commutator on the armature. I have had motors that have too much carbo
jammed in between each commutator conductor leading to the appearanc
o
a shorted motor
Do not use a blade like an Exacto, you need something thin and fla
ended to scrape the bottom of the grove between each conductor
Polishing the faces of the commutator won't help that much
John :-#)
Robert
Hi Robert-
-
A while back I restored my first jukebox, A Rock-Ola 474 machine.-
-
I too had problems with both of these motors.-
-
I was really lucky and managed to find two brand new old stoc
armature
for them. And after a complete rebuild and regrease, they now ru
brilliantly.-
-
They are 28V DC Motors. I tested mine by connecting them to a Benc
Variable Power Supply unit, and wound up the voltage slowly whil
monitoring the current. Mine were both taking in excess of 2A which i
the limit of my PSU. By the time I got to 20V DC-
-
I found that after the rebuild the motors would run off load an
consum
in the area of 500mA, while at the full 28V.-
-
I didn't have a problem with shorted turns on mine. The problem I ha
was that the commutators (sections where the brushes connect th
armature) had a deep groove worn in them, plus the grease in th
gearboxes had congealed, and needed to be cleaned out completely, the
fully regreased.-
-
Also with the armatures and brushes removed, you may like to check th
suppression capacitors (tubular devices connected across the motors
fo
a short circuit.-
-
These capacitors are installed to reduce motor noise. Strangely th
motors in my machine did not have these fitted.-
-
Hope this info helps-
-
Pete-
-
-
g0pkh-
-
* * (Please post followups or tech enquiries to the newsgroup
* John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C
* Call [phone] or Fax [phone] (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games
* * * * * * * * * * *www.flippers.co
* * * *"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."

Hi Robert

If you do as John suggests. That may sort the armatures out

However you will still need two sets of brushes. You can buy them from
chap in Germany here.

http://www.jukebox-world.de

He does brush sets for most of these motors

Pet

P.

Tell about paying more than what the machine is worth LO
That is the problem with restoring these girls

It seems likely that yours both had the motors replaced for duff befor
it was scrapped


--
g0pkh

[robert]

Hi Pete,

Thanks for the link.

If cleaning between the communicator bars solves the issue of any
shorts, will the motor still work with the worn brushes or will I have
to replace them before I can test the motor?


Robert.

Post by g0pkh

Post by robert
Hi John,
Okay I'll give it a shot and post back.
Robert
robert wrote:-
Hi Pete,-
-
I took the gripper motor apart, cleaned it out polished up the
communicator and thought that would solve the problem but when I
connected it and ran the machine it still blew a fuse :( *The carousel
motor is beyond my repair ability so I think I'm going to have to get
a replacement anyway.-
-
I don't see the capacitors on these particular motors. *I have a
Rockola 483 that I plan on restoring (if I ever get this one done!)
that does have the caps on the motor.-
-
The kicker is that these two motors are going to cost more than I paid
for the machine *lol.-
Before you replace the motors try running a thin flat blade between each
commutator on the armature. I have had motors that have too much carbon
jammed in between each commutator conductor leading to the appearance of
a shorted motor.
Do not use a blade like an Exacto, you need something thin and flat
ended to scrape the bottom of the grove between each conductor.
Polishing the faces of the commutator won't help that much.
John :-#)#
-
Robert-
-
Hi Robert--
--
A while back I restored my first jukebox, A Rock-Ola 474 machine.--
--
I too had problems with both of these motors.--
--
I was really lucky and managed to find two brand new old stock armatures
for them. And after a complete rebuild and regrease, they now run
brilliantly.--
--
They are 28V DC Motors. I tested mine by connecting them to a Bench
Variable Power Supply unit, and wound up the voltage slowly while
monitoring the current. Mine were both taking in excess of 2A which is
the limit of my PSU. By the time I got to 20V DC--
--
I found that after the rebuild the motors would run off load and consume
in the area of 500mA, while at the full 28V.--
--
I didn't have a problem with shorted turns on mine. The problem I had
was that the commutators (sections where the brushes connect the
armature) had a deep groove worn in them, plus the grease in the
gearboxes had congealed, and needed to be cleaned out completely, then
fully regreased.--
--
Also with the armatures and brushes removed, you may like to check the
suppression capacitors (tubular devices connected across the motors) for
a short circuit.--
--
These capacitors are installed to reduce motor noise. Strangely the
motors in my machine did not have these fitted.--
--
Hope this info helps--
--
Pete--
--
--
g0pkh--
--
* * (Please post followups or tech enquiries to the newsgroup)
* John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9
* Call [phone] or Fax [phone] (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
* * * * * * * * * * *www.flippers.com
* * * *"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."-

Hi Robert
If you do as John suggests. That may sort the armatures out.
However you will still need two sets of brushes. You can buy them from a
chap in Germany here.
http://www.jukebox-world.de/
He does brush sets for most of these motors.
Pete
P.S
Tell about paying more than what the machine is worth LOL
That is the problem with restoring these girls.
It seems likely that yours both had the motors replaced for duff before
it was scrapped.
--
g0pkh

[John Robertson]

Post by robert
Hi Pete,
Thanks for the link.
If cleaning between the communicator bars solves the issue of any
shorts, will the motor still work with the worn brushes or will I have
to replace them before I can test the motor?
Robert.

It all depends on the length and condition of the brushes. I figure a
brush is worn out when it is less than 2X as it is wide.

Victoryglass.com also has brushes if I'm not mistaken...

We have brushes but not on our web site yet.

John :-#)#

Post by robert

Post by g0pkh

Post by robert
Hi John,
Okay I'll give it a shot and post back.
Robert
robert wrote:-
Hi Pete,-
-
I took the gripper motor apart, cleaned it out polished up the
communicator and thought that would solve the problem but when I
connected it and ran the machine it still blew a fuse :( *The carousel
motor is beyond my repair ability so I think I'm going to have to get
a replacement anyway.-
-
I don't see the capacitors on these particular motors. *I have a
Rockola 483 that I plan on restoring (if I ever get this one done!)
that does have the caps on the motor.-
-
The kicker is that these two motors are going to cost more than I paid
for the machine *lol.-
Before you replace the motors try running a thin flat blade between each
commutator on the armature. I have had motors that have too much carbon
jammed in between each commutator conductor leading to the appearance of
a shorted motor.
Do not use a blade like an Exacto, you need something thin and flat
ended to scrape the bottom of the grove between each conductor.
Polishing the faces of the commutator won't help that much.
John :-#)#
-
Robert-
-
Hi Robert--
--
A while back I restored my first jukebox, A Rock-Ola 474 machine.--
--
I too had problems with both of these motors.--
--
I was really lucky and managed to find two brand new old stock armatures
for them. And after a complete rebuild and regrease, they now run
brilliantly.--
--
They are 28V DC Motors. I tested mine by connecting them to a Bench
Variable Power Supply unit, and wound up the voltage slowly while
monitoring the current. Mine were both taking in excess of 2A which is
the limit of my PSU. By the time I got to 20V DC--
--
I found that after the rebuild the motors would run off load and consume
in the area of 500mA, while at the full 28V.--
--
I didn't have a problem with shorted turns on mine. The problem I had
was that the commutators (sections where the brushes connect the
armature) had a deep groove worn in them, plus the grease in the
gearboxes had congealed, and needed to be cleaned out completely, then
fully regreased.--
--
Also with the armatures and brushes removed, you may like to check the
suppression capacitors (tubular devices connected across the motors) for
a short circuit.--
--
These capacitors are installed to reduce motor noise. Strangely the
motors in my machine did not have these fitted.--
--
Hope this info helps--
--
Pete--
--
--
g0pkh--
--
* * (Please post followups or tech enquiries to the newsgroup)
* John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9
* Call [phone] or Fax [phone] (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
* * * * * * * * * * *www.flippers.com
* * * *"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."-

Hi Robert
If you do as John suggests. That may sort the armatures out.
However you will still need two sets of brushes. You can buy them from a
chap in Germany here.
http://www.jukebox-world.de/
He does brush sets for most of these motors.
Pete
P.S
Tell about paying more than what the machine is worth LOL
That is the problem with restoring these girls.
It seems likely that yours both had the motors replaced for duff before
it was scrapped.
--
g0pkh

[robert]

Hi Guys,

Just an update, I cleaned in between the communicator bars.

When I plugged the motor back to the machine, it blew the fuse
immediately. Before it would take a few seconds but this was
instant.

I think this motor is, as they would say on www.jukebox-world.de/,
"KAPUT!"



Robert

Post by John Robertson

Post by robert
Hi Pete,
Thanks for the link.
If cleaning between the communicator bars solves the issue of any
shorts, will the motor still work with the worn brushes or will I have
to replace them before I can test the motor?
Robert.

It all depends on the length and condition of the brushes. I figure a
brush is worn out when it is less than 2X as it is wide.
Victoryglass.com also has brushes if I'm not mistaken...
We have brushes but not on our web site yet.
John :-#)#

Post by robert

Post by g0pkh

Post by robert
Hi John,
Okay I'll give it a shot and post back.
Robert
robert wrote:-
Hi Pete,-
-
I took the gripper motor apart, cleaned it out polished up the
communicator and thought that would solve the problem but when I
connected it and ran the machine it still blew a fuse :( *The carousel
motor is beyond my repair ability so I think I'm going to have to get
a replacement anyway.-
-
I don't see the capacitors on these particular motors. *I have a
Rockola 483 that I plan on restoring (if I ever get this one done!)
that does have the caps on the motor.-
-
The kicker is that these two motors are going to cost more than I paid
for the machine *lol.-
Before you replace the motors try running a thin flat blade between each
commutator on the armature. I have had motors that have too much carbon
jammed in between each commutator conductor leading to the appearance of
a shorted motor.
Do not use a blade like an Exacto, you need something thin and flat
ended to scrape the bottom of the grove between each conductor.
Polishing the faces of the commutator won't help that much.
John :-#)#
-
Robert-
-
Hi Robert--
--
A while back I restored my first jukebox, A Rock-Ola 474 machine.--
--
I too had problems with both of these motors.--
--
I was really lucky and managed to find two brand new old stock armatures
for them. And after a complete rebuild and regrease, they now run
brilliantly.--
--
They are 28V DC Motors. I tested mine by connecting them to a Bench
Variable Power Supply unit, and wound up the voltage slowly while
monitoring the current. Mine were both taking in excess of 2A which is
the limit of my PSU. By the time I got to 20V DC--
--
I found that after the rebuild the motors would run off load and consume
in the area of 500mA, while at the full 28V.--
--
I didn't have a problem with shorted turns on mine. The problem I had
was that the commutators (sections where the brushes connect the
armature) had a deep groove worn in them, plus the grease in the
gearboxes had congealed, and needed to be cleaned out completely, then
fully regreased.--
--
Also with the armatures and brushes removed, you may like to check the
suppression capacitors (tubular devices connected across the motors) for
a short circuit.--
--
These capacitors are installed to reduce motor noise. Strangely the
motors in my machine did not have these fitted.--
--
Hope this info helps--
--
Pete--
--
--
g0pkh--
--
* * (Please post followups or tech enquiries to the newsgroup)
* John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9
* Call [phone] or Fax [phone] (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
* * * * * * * * * * *www.flippers.com
* * * *"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."-

Hi Robert
If you do as John suggests. That may sort the armatures out.
However you will still need two sets of brushes. You can buy them from a
chap in Germany here.
http://www.jukebox-world.de/
He does brush sets for most of these motors.
Pete
P.S
Tell about paying more than what the machine is worth LOL
That is the problem with restoring these girls.
It seems likely that yours both had the motors replaced for duff before
it was scrapped.
--
g0pkh

--
    (Please post followups or tech enquiries to the newsgroup)
  John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9
  Call [phone] or Fax [phone] (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
                     www.flippers.com
       "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."

[g0pkh]

Post by robert
Hi Pete,
Thanks for the link.
If cleaning between the communicator bars solves the issue of any
shorts, will the motor still work with the worn brushes or will I have
to replace them before I can test the motor?
Robert.
-
Hi John,-
-
Okay I'll give it a shot and post back.-
-
Robert-
-
robert wrote:-
Hi Pete,-
-
I took the gripper motor apart, cleaned it out polished up the
communicator and thought that would solve the problem but when I
connected it and ran the machine it still blew a fuse :( *Th
carousel
motor is beyond my repair ability so I think I'm going to have to get
a replacement anyway.-
-
I don't see the capacitors on these particular motors. *I have a
Rockola 483 that I plan on restoring (if I ever get this one done!)
that does have the caps on the motor.-
-
The kicker is that these two motors are going to cost more than
paid
for the machine *lol.--
-
Before you replace the motors try running a thin flat blade between each
commutator on the armature. I have had motors that have too muc
carbon
jammed in between each commutator conductor leading to the appearance of
a shorted motor.-
-
Do not use a blade like an Exacto, you need something thin and flat
ended to scrape the bottom of the grove between each conductor.
Polishing the faces of the commutator won't help that much.-
-
John :-#)#-
-
-
Robert-
-
Hi Robert--
--
A while back I restored my first jukebox, A Rock-Ola 474 machine.--
--
I too had problems with both of these motors.--
--
I was really lucky and managed to find two brand new old stock
armatures
for them. And after a complete rebuild and regrease, they now run
brilliantly.--
--
They are 28V DC Motors. I tested mine by connecting them to a Bench
Variable Power Supply unit, and wound up the voltage slowly while
monitoring the current. Mine were both taking in excess of 2A whic
is
the limit of my PSU. By the time I got to 20V DC--
--
I found that after the rebuild the motors would run off load and consume
in the area of 500mA, while at the full 28V.--
--
I didn't have a problem with shorted turns on mine. The problem I had
was that the commutators (sections where the brushes connect the
armature) had a deep groove worn in them, plus the grease in the
gearboxes had congealed, and needed to be cleaned out completely
then
fully regreased.--
--
Also with the armatures and brushes removed, you may like to chec
the
suppression capacitors (tubular devices connected across the motors) for
a short circuit.--
--
These capacitors are installed to reduce motor noise. Strangely the
motors in my machine did not have these fitted.--
--
Hope this info helps--
--
Pete--
--
--
g0pkh---
-
--
* * (Please post followups or tech enquiries to the newsgroup)
* John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9
* Call [phone] or Fax [phone] (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
* * * * * * * * * * *www.flippers.com
* * * *"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."--
Hi Robert
If you do as John suggests. That may sort the armatures out.
However you will still need two sets of brushes. You can buy them fro
a
chap in Germany here.
http://www.jukebox-world.de/
He does brush sets for most of these motors.
Pete
P.S
Tell about paying more than what the machine is worth LOL
That is the problem with restoring these girls.
It seems likely that yours both had the motors replaced for duf
before
it was scrapped.
--
g0pkh-

Hi Robert

If the brushes are not too badly worn, then yes the motor will stil
work.

However, I saw a picture of one of your motors which showed one brush as
completely worn to the end.

if you have two reasonable brushes out of the remaining 3 (out of both
motors of course) then give it a try.

You would be wise when testing to use an ammeter in series with the
motor to monitor the current (10A range if possible).

How are you for test gear ?
Once you get into this sort of repair you start to need the extra gear
unfortunately. A variable bench power supply is invaluable here.

Pete

[robert]

Hi Pete,

I may have sent this to you directly so my apologies if there is a
duplicate.

I only have a DMM, which gets me through most things. Anything more
involved I usually send out.

Robert

Post by g0pkh

Post by robert
Hi Pete,
Thanks for the link.
If cleaning between the communicator bars solves the issue of any
shorts, will the motor still work with the worn brushes or will I have
to replace them before I can test the motor?
Robert.
-
Hi John,-
-
Okay I'll give it a shot and post back.-
-
Robert-
-
robert wrote:-
Hi Pete,-
-
I took the gripper motor apart, cleaned it out polished up the
communicator and thought that would solve the problem but when I
connected it and ran the machine it still blew a fuse :( *The carousel
motor is beyond my repair ability so I think I'm going to have to get
a replacement anyway.-
-
I don't see the capacitors on these particular motors. *I have a
Rockola 483 that I plan on restoring (if I ever get this one done!)
that does have the caps on the motor.-
-
The kicker is that these two motors are going to cost more than I paid
for the machine *lol.--
-
Before you replace the motors try running a thin flat blade between each
commutator on the armature. I have had motors that have too much carbon
jammed in between each commutator conductor leading to the appearance of
a shorted motor.-
-
Do not use a blade like an Exacto, you need something thin and flat
ended to scrape the bottom of the grove between each conductor.
Polishing the faces of the commutator won't help that much.-
-
John :-#)#-
-
-
Robert-
-
Hi Robert--
--
A while back I restored my first jukebox, A Rock-Ola 474 machine.--
--
I too had problems with both of these motors.--
--
I was really lucky and managed to find two brand new old stock armatures
for them. And after a complete rebuild and regrease, they now run
brilliantly.--
--
They are 28V DC Motors. I tested mine by connecting them to a Bench
Variable Power Supply unit, and wound up the voltage slowly while
monitoring the current. Mine were both taking in excess of 2A which is
the limit of my PSU. By the time I got to 20V DC--
--
I found that after the rebuild the motors would run off load and consume
in the area of 500mA, while at the full 28V.--
--
I didn't have a problem with shorted turns on mine. The problem I had
was that the commutators (sections where the brushes connect the
armature) had a deep groove worn in them, plus the grease in the
gearboxes had congealed, and needed to be cleaned out completely, then
fully regreased.--
--
Also with the armatures and brushes removed, you may like to check the
suppression capacitors (tubular devices connected across the motors) for
a short circuit.--
--
These capacitors are installed to reduce motor noise. Strangely the
motors in my machine did not have these fitted.--
--
Hope this info helps--
--
Pete--
--
--
g0pkh---
-
--
* * (Please post followups or tech enquiries to the newsgroup)
* John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9
* Call [phone] or Fax [phone] (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
* * * * * * * * * * *www.flippers.com
* * * *"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."--
Hi Robert
If you do as John suggests. That may sort the armatures out.
However you will still need two sets of brushes. You can buy them from a
chap in Germany here.
http://www.jukebox-world.de/
He does brush sets for most of these motors.
Pete
P.S
Tell about paying more than what the machine is worth LOL
That is the problem with restoring these girls.
It seems likely that yours both had the motors replaced for duff before
it was scrapped.
--
g0pkh-

Hi Robert
If the brushes are not too badly worn, then yes the motor will still
work.
However, I saw a picture of one of your motors which showed one brush as
completely worn to the end.
if you have two reasonable brushes out of the remaining 3 (out of both
motors of course) then give it a try.
You would be wise when testing to use an ammeter in series with the
motor to monitor the current (10A range if possible).
How are you for test gear ?
Once you get into this sort of repair you start to need the extra gear
unfortunately. A variable bench power supply is invaluable here.
Pete
--
g0pkh

[Tony Miklos]

Post by g0pkh

Post by robert
Hi John,
Okay I'll give it a shot and post back.
Robert
robert wrote:-
Hi Pete,-
-
I took the gripper motor apart, cleaned it out polished up the
communicator and thought that would solve the problem but when I
connected it and ran the machine it still blew a fuse :( *The carousel
motor is beyond my repair ability so I think I'm going to have to get
a replacement anyway.-
-
I don't see the capacitors on these particular motors. *I have a
Rockola 483 that I plan on restoring (if I ever get this one done!)
that does have the caps on the motor.-
-
The kicker is that these two motors are going to cost more than I paid
for the machine *lol.-
Before you replace the motors try running a thin flat blade between each
commutator on the armature. I have had motors that have too much carbon
jammed in between each commutator conductor leading to the appearance of
a shorted motor.
Do not use a blade like an Exacto, you need something thin and flat
ended to scrape the bottom of the grove between each conductor.
Polishing the faces of the commutator won't help that much.
John :-#)#
-
Robert-
-
Hi Robert--
--
A while back I restored my first jukebox, A Rock-Ola 474 machine.--
--
I too had problems with both of these motors.--
--
I was really lucky and managed to find two brand new old stock armatures
for them. And after a complete rebuild and regrease, they now run
brilliantly.--
--
They are 28V DC Motors. I tested mine by connecting them to a Bench
Variable Power Supply unit, and wound up the voltage slowly while
monitoring the current. Mine were both taking in excess of 2A which is
the limit of my PSU. By the time I got to 20V DC--
--
I found that after the rebuild the motors would run off load and consume
in the area of 500mA, while at the full 28V.--
--
I didn't have a problem with shorted turns on mine. The problem I had
was that the commutators (sections where the brushes connect the
armature) had a deep groove worn in them, plus the grease in the
gearboxes had congealed, and needed to be cleaned out completely, then
fully regreased.--
--
Also with the armatures and brushes removed, you may like to check the
suppression capacitors (tubular devices connected across the motors) for
a short circuit.--
--
These capacitors are installed to reduce motor noise. Strangely the
motors in my machine did not have these fitted.--
--
Hope this info helps--
--
Pete--
--
--
g0pkh--
--
* * (Please post followups or tech enquiries to the newsgroup)
* John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9
* Call [phone] or Fax [phone] (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
* * * * * * * * * * *www.flippers.com
* * * *"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."-

Hi Robert
If you do as John suggests. That may sort the armatures out.

That's odd, I've done it at least 50 times and never shorted out the
armature. What it does is removes the shorts between the commutators.
I use a dental cleaning tool to scrape out the crud.

[robert]

Hi Tony,

I may have sent this to you directly like I did with Pete so my
apologies if there is a duplicate too.

It was odd that it blew a fuse even quicker after I had cleaned
between the communicator bars.


Robert

Post by Tony Miklos

Post by g0pkh

Post by robert
Hi John,
Okay I'll give it a shot and post back.
Robert
robert wrote:-
Hi Pete,-
-
I took the gripper motor apart, cleaned it out polished up the
communicator and thought that would solve the problem but when I
connected it and ran the machine it still blew a fuse :( *The carousel
motor is beyond my repair ability so I think I'm going to have to get
a replacement anyway.-
-
I don't see the capacitors on these particular motors. *I have a
Rockola 483 that I plan on restoring (if I ever get this one done!)
that does have the caps on the motor.-
-
The kicker is that these two motors are going to cost more than I paid
for the machine *lol.-
Before you replace the motors try running a thin flat blade between each
commutator on the armature. I have had motors that have too much carbon
jammed in between each commutator conductor leading to the appearance of
a shorted motor.
Do not use a blade like an Exacto, you need something thin and flat
ended to scrape the bottom of the grove between each conductor.
Polishing the faces of the commutator won't help that much.
John :-#)#
-
Robert-
-
Hi Robert--
--
A while back I restored my first jukebox, A Rock-Ola 474 machine.--
--
I too had problems with both of these motors.--
--
I was really lucky and managed to find two brand new old stock armatures
for them. And after a complete rebuild and regrease, they now run
brilliantly.--
--
They are 28V DC Motors. I tested mine by connecting them to a Bench
Variable Power Supply unit, and wound up the voltage slowly while
monitoring the current. Mine were both taking in excess of 2A which is
the limit of my PSU. By the time I got to 20V DC--
--
I found that after the rebuild the motors would run off load and consume
in the area of 500mA, while at the full 28V.--
--
I didn't have a problem with shorted turns on mine. The problem I had
was that the commutators (sections where the brushes connect the
armature) had a deep groove worn in them, plus the grease in the
gearboxes had congealed, and needed to be cleaned out completely, then
fully regreased.--
--
Also with the armatures and brushes removed, you may like to check the
suppression capacitors (tubular devices connected across the motors) for
a short circuit.--
--
These capacitors are installed to reduce motor noise. Strangely the
motors in my machine did not have these fitted.--
--
Hope this info helps--
--
Pete--
--
--
g0pkh--
--
* * (Please post followups or tech enquiries to the newsgroup)
* John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9
* Call [phone] or Fax [phone] (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
* * * * * * * * * * *www.flippers.com
* * * *"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."-

Hi Robert
If you do as John suggests. That may sort the armatures out.

That's odd, I've done it at least 50 times and never shorted out the
armature.  What it does is removes the shorts between the commutators.
I use a dental cleaning tool to scrape out the crud.

[Tony Miklos]

Post by robert
Hi Tony,
It was odd that it blew a fuse even quicker after I had cleaned
between the communicator bars.

That is odd. What did you use to clean between them?

Tony

Post by robert

Post by Tony Miklos

Post by g0pkh

Post by robert
Hi John,
Okay I'll give it a shot and post back.
Robert
robert wrote:-
Hi Pete,-
-
I took the gripper motor apart, cleaned it out polished up the
communicator and thought that would solve the problem but when I
connected it and ran the machine it still blew a fuse :( *The carousel
motor is beyond my repair ability so I think I'm going to have to get
a replacement anyway.-
-
I don't see the capacitors on these particular motors. *I have a
Rockola 483 that I plan on restoring (if I ever get this one done!)
that does have the caps on the motor.-
-
The kicker is that these two motors are going to cost more than I paid
for the machine *lol.-
Before you replace the motors try running a thin flat blade between each
commutator on the armature. I have had motors that have too much carbon
jammed in between each commutator conductor leading to the appearance of
a shorted motor.
Do not use a blade like an Exacto, you need something thin and flat
ended to scrape the bottom of the grove between each conductor.
Polishing the faces of the commutator won't help that much.
John :-#)#
-
Robert-
-
Hi Robert--
--
A while back I restored my first jukebox, A Rock-Ola 474 machine.--
--
I too had problems with both of these motors.--
--
I was really lucky and managed to find two brand new old stock armatures
for them. And after a complete rebuild and regrease, they now run
brilliantly.--
--
They are 28V DC Motors. I tested mine by connecting them to a Bench
Variable Power Supply unit, and wound up the voltage slowly while
monitoring the current. Mine were both taking in excess of 2A which is
the limit of my PSU. By the time I got to 20V DC--
--
I found that after the rebuild the motors would run off load and consume
in the area of 500mA, while at the full 28V.--
--
I didn't have a problem with shorted turns on mine. The problem I had
was that the commutators (sections where the brushes connect the
armature) had a deep groove worn in them, plus the grease in the
gearboxes had congealed, and needed to be cleaned out completely, then
fully regreased.--
--
Also with the armatures and brushes removed, you may like to check the
suppression capacitors (tubular devices connected across the motors) for
a short circuit.--
--
These capacitors are installed to reduce motor noise. Strangely the
motors in my machine did not have these fitted.--
--
Hope this info helps--
--
Pete--
--
--
g0pkh--
--
* * (Please post followups or tech enquiries to the newsgroup)
* John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9
* Call [phone] or Fax [phone] (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
* * * * * * * * * * *www.flippers.com
* * * *"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."-

Hi Robert
If you do as John suggests. That may sort the armatures out.

That's odd, I've done it at least 50 times and never shorted out the
armature. What it does is removes the shorts between the commutators.
I use a dental cleaning tool to scrape out the crud.

[robert]

Hey Tony,

I used a small very thin straight edge precision screwdriver. It was
the only thing I had thin enough aside from a razor blade (which I did
not use).

I think I may be able to get some used motors, but the only problem is
that I'm not sure if they work or not. The person will refund my
money (minus shipping of course) if they don't work, which is very
cool.

BTW, what exactly is involved with 'rebuilding' a DC motor? I
received a quote from someone to rebuild my motors, but they said that
if the motor needs brushes, then it would be extra. I would imagine
replacing brushes would be a standard part of the rebuild. No?



Robert

Post by robert
Hi Tony,
It was odd that it blew a fuse even quicker after I had cleaned
between the communicator bars.

That is odd.  What did you use to clean between them?
Tony

Post by robert

Post by Tony Miklos

Post by g0pkh

Post by robert
Hi John,
Okay I'll give it a shot and post back.
Robert
robert wrote:-
Hi Pete,-
-
I took the gripper motor apart, cleaned it out polished up the
communicator and thought that would solve the problem but when I
connected it and ran the machine it still blew a fuse :( *The carousel
motor is beyond my repair ability so I think I'm going to have to get
a replacement anyway.-
-
I don't see the capacitors on these particular motors. *I have a
Rockola 483 that I plan on restoring (if I ever get this one done!)
that does have the caps on the motor.-
-
The kicker is that these two motors are going to cost more than I paid
for the machine *lol.-
Before you replace the motors try running a thin flat blade between each
commutator on the armature. I have had motors that have too much carbon
jammed in between each commutator conductor leading to the appearance of
a shorted motor.
Do not use a blade like an Exacto, you need something thin and flat
ended to scrape the bottom of the grove between each conductor.
Polishing the faces of the commutator won't help that much.
John :-#)#
-
Robert-
-
Hi Robert--
--
A while back I restored my first jukebox, A Rock-Ola 474 machine.--
--
I too had problems with both of these motors.--
--
I was really lucky and managed to find two brand new old stock armatures
for them. And after a complete rebuild and regrease, they now run
brilliantly.--
--
They are 28V DC Motors. I tested mine by connecting them to a Bench
Variable Power Supply unit, and wound up the voltage slowly while
monitoring the current. Mine were both taking in excess of 2A which is
the limit of my PSU. By the time I got to 20V DC--
--
I found that after the rebuild the motors would run off load and consume
in the area of 500mA, while at the full 28V.--
--
I didn't have a problem with shorted turns on mine. The problem I had
was that the commutators (sections where the brushes connect the
armature) had a deep groove worn in them, plus the grease in the
gearboxes had congealed, and needed to be cleaned out completely, then
fully regreased.--
--
Also with the armatures and brushes removed, you may like to check the
suppression capacitors (tubular devices connected across the motors) for
a short circuit.--
--
These capacitors are installed to reduce motor noise. Strangely the
motors in my machine did not have these fitted.--
--
Hope this info helps--
--
Pete--
--
--
g0pkh--
--
* * (Please post followups or tech enquiries to the newsgroup)
* John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9
* Call [phone] or Fax [phone] (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
* * * * * * * * * * *www.flippers.com
* * * *"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."-

Hi Robert
If you do as John suggests. That may sort the armatures out.

That's odd, I've done it at least 50 times and never shorted out the
armature.  What it does is removes the shorts between the commutators.
I use a dental cleaning tool to scrape out the crud.

[Tony Miklos]

Post by robert
Hey Tony,
I used a small very thin straight edge precision screwdriver. It was
the only thing I had thin enough aside from a razor blade (which I did
not use).
I think I may be able to get some used motors, but the only problem is
that I'm not sure if they work or not. The person will refund my
money (minus shipping of course) if they don't work, which is very
cool.
BTW, what exactly is involved with 'rebuilding' a DC motor? I
received a quote from someone to rebuild my motors, but they said that
if the motor needs brushes, then it would be extra. I would imagine
replacing brushes would be a standard part of the rebuild. No?

It sounds like they are not "rebuilding" the motors. They are taking
them apart, cleaning, and lubing them, which often works out quite well
but is far from a rebuild.

Post by robert

Post by Tony Miklos

Post by robert
Hi Tony,
It was odd that it blew a fuse even quicker after I had cleaned
between the communicator bars.

That is odd. What did you use to clean between them?
Tony

Post by robert

Post by Tony Miklos

Post by g0pkh

Post by robert
Hi John,
Okay I'll give it a shot and post back.
Robert
robert wrote:-
Hi Pete,-
-
I took the gripper motor apart, cleaned it out polished up the
communicator and thought that would solve the problem but when I
connected it and ran the machine it still blew a fuse :( *The carousel
motor is beyond my repair ability so I think I'm going to have to get
a replacement anyway.-
-
I don't see the capacitors on these particular motors. *I have a
Rockola 483 that I plan on restoring (if I ever get this one done!)
that does have the caps on the motor.-
-
The kicker is that these two motors are going to cost more than I paid
for the machine *lol.-
Before you replace the motors try running a thin flat blade between each
commutator on the armature. I have had motors that have too much carbon
jammed in between each commutator conductor leading to the appearance of
a shorted motor.
Do not use a blade like an Exacto, you need something thin and flat
ended to scrape the bottom of the grove between each conductor.
Polishing the faces of the commutator won't help that much.
John :-#)#
-
Robert-
-
Hi Robert--
--
A while back I restored my first jukebox, A Rock-Ola 474 machine.--
--
I too had problems with both of these motors.--
--
I was really lucky and managed to find two brand new old stock armatures
for them. And after a complete rebuild and regrease, they now run
brilliantly.--
--
They are 28V DC Motors. I tested mine by connecting them to a Bench
Variable Power Supply unit, and wound up the voltage slowly while
monitoring the current. Mine were both taking in excess of 2A which is
the limit of my PSU. By the time I got to 20V DC--
--
I found that after the rebuild the motors would run off load and consume
in the area of 500mA, while at the full 28V.--
--
I didn't have a problem with shorted turns on mine. The problem I had
was that the commutators (sections where the brushes connect the
armature) had a deep groove worn in them, plus the grease in the
gearboxes had congealed, and needed to be cleaned out completely, then
fully regreased.--
--
Also with the armatures and brushes removed, you may like to check the
suppression capacitors (tubular devices connected across the motors) for
a short circuit.--
--
These capacitors are installed to reduce motor noise. Strangely the
motors in my machine did not have these fitted.--
--
Hope this info helps--
--
Pete--
--
--
g0pkh--
--
* * (Please post followups or tech enquiries to the newsgroup)
* John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9
* Call [phone] or Fax [phone] (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
* * * * * * * * * * *www.flippers.com
* * * *"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."-

Hi Robert
If you do as John suggests. That may sort the armatures out.

That's odd, I've done it at least 50 times and never shorted out the
armature. What it does is removes the shorts between the commutators.
I use a dental cleaning tool to scrape out the crud.

[robert]

Hi Tony,

Thanks for the heads up. I appreciate it.

I found pair of used motors and a pair of rebuilt motors from separate
people, both of which are not the person who quoted me the "rebuild"
in my previous post.

The rebuilt motors are basically twice the cost of the other non-
tested motors that are just pulled from a machine. But I'm starting
to think that going the way of the rebuilt ones seems to make the most
sense as I can just plug them in and be done with it.


Robert

Post by robert
Hey Tony,
I used a small very thin straight edge precision screwdriver.  It was
the only thing I had thin enough aside from a razor blade (which I did
not use).
I think I may be able to get some used motors, but the only problem is
that I'm not sure if they work or not.  The person will refund my
money (minus shipping of course) if they don't work, which is very
cool.
BTW, what exactly is involved with 'rebuilding' a DC motor?  I
received a quote from someone to rebuild my motors, but they said that
if the motor needs brushes, then it would be extra.  I would imagine
replacing brushes would be a standard part of the rebuild.  No?

It sounds like they are not "rebuilding" the motors.  They are taking
them apart, cleaning, and lubing them, which often works out quite well
but is far from a rebuild.

Post by robert

Post by robert
Hi Tony,
It was odd that it blew a fuse even quicker after I had cleaned
between the communicator bars.

That is odd.  What did you use to clean between them?
Tony

Post by robert

Post by Tony Miklos

Post by g0pkh

Post by robert
Hi John,
Okay I'll give it a shot and post back.
Robert
robert wrote:-
Hi Pete,-
-
I took the gripper motor apart, cleaned it out polished up the
communicator and thought that would solve the problem but when I
connected it and ran the machine it still blew a fuse :( *The carousel
motor is beyond my repair ability so I think I'm going to have to get
a replacement anyway.-
-
I don't see the capacitors on these particular motors. *I have a
Rockola 483 that I plan on restoring (if I ever get this one done!)
that does have the caps on the motor.-
-
The kicker is that these two motors are going to cost more than I paid
for the machine *lol.-
Before you replace the motors try running a thin flat blade between each
commutator on the armature. I have had motors that have too much carbon
jammed in between each commutator conductor leading to the appearance of
a shorted motor.
Do not use a blade like an Exacto, you need something thin and flat
ended to scrape the bottom of the grove between each conductor.
Polishing the faces of the commutator won't help that much.
John :-#)#
-
Robert-
-
Hi Robert--
--
A while back I restored my first jukebox, A Rock-Ola 474 machine.--
--
I too had problems with both of these motors.--
--
I was really lucky and managed to find two brand new old stock armatures
for them. And after a complete rebuild and regrease, they now run
brilliantly.--
--
They are 28V DC Motors. I tested mine by connecting them to a Bench
Variable Power Supply unit, and wound up the voltage slowly while
monitoring the current. Mine were both taking in excess of 2A which is
the limit of my PSU. By the time I got to 20V DC--
--
I found that after the rebuild the motors would run off load and consume
in the area of 500mA, while at the full 28V.--
--
I didn't have a problem with shorted turns on mine. The problem I had
was that the commutators (sections where the brushes connect the
armature) had a deep groove worn in them, plus the grease in the
gearboxes had congealed, and needed to be cleaned out completely, then
fully regreased.--
--
Also with the armatures and brushes removed, you may like to check the
suppression capacitors (tubular devices connected across the motors) for
a short circuit.--
--
These capacitors are installed to reduce motor noise. Strangely the
motors in my machine did not have these fitted.--
--
Hope this info helps--
--
Pete--
--
--
g0pkh--
--
* * (Please post followups or tech enquiries to the newsgroup)
* John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9
* Call [phone] or Fax [phone] (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
* * * * * * * * * * *www.flippers.com
* * * *"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."-

Hi Robert
If you do as John suggests. That may sort the armatures out.

That's odd, I've done it at least 50 times and never shorted out the
armature.  What it does is removes the shorts between the commutators.
I use a dental cleaning tool to scrape out the crud.

[s***@gmail.com]

Appreciate all the discussion here as I've gotten an old 484 working and all greased up but it too blows the motor fuse (I already jumped the lower-amp circuit breaker). Based on the info in this post, I wanted to see how many amps are actually being drawn so I hooked my own supply to each. One was fine but the one that lifts and replaces the record was pegging the needle on the supply. I can turn it with my hand pretty easy. Well... I kept lifting the record and putting it back by reversing the polarity. Well... after about 20 times, the amp meter showed under 1.? I think that reversing the polarity caused all the charged dust in the motor to re-situate. I couldn't believe my eyes (and didn't). So I have a fuse in right now as I type and I've listened to a bunch of records with no trouble. --the fuse WAS blowing within 2 records. Note that I did NOT remove and clean the motor as the author in this thread did. I may actually try taking the jumper off of the circuit breaker.

[John Robertson]

Post by s***@gmail.com
Appreciate all the discussion here as I've gotten an old 484 working and all greased up but it too blows the motor fuse (I already jumped the lower-amp circuit breaker). Based on the info in this post, I wanted to see how many amps are actually being drawn so I hooked my own supply to each. One was fine but the one that lifts and replaces the record was pegging the needle on the supply. I can turn it with my hand pretty easy. Well... I kept lifting the record and putting it back by reversing the polarity. Well... after about 20 times, the amp meter showed under 1.? I think that reversing the polarity caused all the charged dust in the motor to re-situate. I couldn't believe my eyes (and didn't). So I have a fuse in right now as I type and I've listened to a bunch of records with no trouble. --the fuse WAS blowing within 2 records. Note that I did NOT remove and clean the motor as the author in this thread did. I may actually try taking the jumper off of the circuit breaker.

You really do have to take the armature out and clean between the
commutator plates. Carbon builds up over time and shorts out windings
drawing too much current and blowing fuses...

John :-#)#

[s***@gmail.com]

I hear you loud and clear--I'm just saying that this is a weird electronic phenomena... I've been playing song after song now (30-40) and even put the circuit breaker back into action. I cleaned and lubed it in the garage (it was dropped off from a church cleanup effort). I had to jump the breaker the day I got it. It would blow the mechanical fuse every 7 songs or so. I decided to move it into the house as a nice discussion piece. I almost died getting it to my lower level by myself. Seems that the shake up must have kicked the carbon dust in the motor around and I couldn't get it to load 2 records without blowing the fuse. Now it was a big heavy embarrassing boat anchor just taking up space. But from reading this thread I was motivated to put my own supply onto the motor to see the amps. The needle completely pegged (only goes up to 3 and 20 volts output). The motor would spin and forced to stop when the record sat down. I reversed the polarity and put the record back--again the motor was forced to stop with my current still on it. I noticed that in the process of back-and-forth, back-and-forth the amps started reducing. Back-and-forth, back-and-forth it eventually showed under 1 and near 2 when the motor was forced to stop. At that point I put everything back and right now I'm blowing the ceiling off the house. Really.

Can you tell me, if I remove the motor to clean it, does the motor slide out of the gear box? Or will I have to remove that and open it up too? Thanks for all your help here. Also, this is in really nice shape. It came with an extra of every module, extra speakers, and two ice cream containers full of extra records--all in really nice condition. Can you guess at what this might all be worth?

[John Robertson]

Post by s***@gmail.com
I hear you loud and clear--I'm just saying that this is a weird electronic phenomena... I've been playing song after song now (30-40) and even put the circuit breaker back into action. I cleaned and lubed it in the garage (it was dropped off from a church cleanup effort). I had to jump the breaker the day I got it. It would blow the mechanical fuse every 7 songs or so. I decided to move it into the house as a nice discussion piece. I almost died getting it to my lower level by myself. Seems that the shake up must have kicked the carbon dust in the motor around and I couldn't get it to load 2 records without blowing the fuse. Now it was a big heavy embarrassing boat anchor just taking up space. But from reading this thread I was motivated to put my own supply onto the motor to see the amps. The needle completely pegged (only goes up to 3 and 20 volts output). The motor would spin and forced to stop when the record sat down. I reversed the polarity and put the record back--again the m

otor was forced to stop with my current still on it. I noticed that in the process of back-and-forth, back-and-forth the amps started reducing. Back-and-forth, back-and-forth it eventually showed under 1 and near 2 when the motor was forced to stop. At that point I put everything back and right now I'm blowing the ceiling off the house. Really.

Post by s***@gmail.com
Can you tell me, if I remove the motor to clean it, does the motor slide out of the gear box? Or will I have to remove that and open it up too? Thanks for all your help here. Also, this is in really nice shape. It came with an extra of every module, extra speakers, and two ice cream containers full of extra records--all in really nice condition. Can you guess at what this might all be worth?

Best to remove the motor assembly, just three bolts hold it in place,
then take apart on the bench. you have to take the brushes out before
opening the case and trying to do that while the motor is installed is
rather difficult if even possible.

When you reinstall the motor press it up against the gear whilst
tightening the three bolts, but take care that there is a small amount
(1/100") or so slack/play between the gears so you don't get a tight spot.

John :-#)#

[s***@gmail.com]

Hi, I just want to be clear so I don't screw up. Do I turn it while pulling it away out of the gear box? --Or do I have to open or remove the gear box too? The drawing shows a little ball bearing at the tip of the motor shaft in the gear box. Do I try to keep that balanced on the tip of the shaft when I remove it? Thank you

[John Robertson]

Post by s***@gmail.com
Hi, I just want to be clear so I don't screw up. Do I turn it while pulling it away out of the gear box? --Or do I have to open or remove the gear box too? The drawing shows a little ball bearing at the tip of the motor shaft in the gear box. Do I try to keep that balanced on the tip of the shaft when I remove it? Thank you

Hi, if you are asking about removing the motor armature from the housing
then you can normally simply pull it out the rear once the cover is off
and the brushes removed. In some cases you have to remove the brush
holding assembly which would be held in place with two screws, however
if the opening is large enough for the body of the armature to pass
though then you are OK.

You can turn the armature if you like, but the gears should be loose
enough to simply pull out the armature when the motor is removed from
the machine.

As for the small ball bearing on the end of the shaft - this is held in
place with some grease when you put it back. Not all motors have the
ball bearing, if there is a ball bearing then the end cap against which
the ball bearing rests is usually adjustable and held in place by a
small Allen (usually) head setscrew.

Watch out for any shims on the shaft! They must go back in the same
positions (front shims vs. rear shims).

Fresh grease on the gears is a good idea - molylube is good (I think).
And non-detergent 20W oil for the motor bushings and shaft - keeping
armature dry of course!

John :-#)#

[s***@gmail.com]

Perfect. You really know this stuff! Separately, the unit has 2 AA batteries to remember the top 3 selections. --they look to be fresh and working. Under the turn table is an old battery wired in--the manual labels it as a battery pack. I'm guessing that this hasn't worked in years. Any idea what it's purpose is? Perhaps to finish a cycle if it gets unplugged? I'm guessing that there is a trickle charge to it.?

[John Robertson]

Post by s***@gmail.com
Perfect. You really know this stuff! Separately, the unit has 2 AA batteries to remember the top 3 selections. --they look to be fresh and working. Under the turn table is an old battery wired in--the manual labels it as a battery pack. I'm guessing that this hasn't worked in years. Any idea what it's purpose is? Perhaps to finish a cycle if it gets unplugged? I'm guessing that there is a trickle charge to it.?

Sorry, I don't know the purpose of that second battery pack...

John :-#)#

[s***@gmail.com]

John I feel very dumb. I just checked eBay to see what a used motor might cost and learned that the gear box is part of the motor. I thought that they were two separate things and that I could remove the motor from the jukebox and leave the gearbox in. I get it now. I have a lot to learn.

[John Robertson]

Post by s***@gmail.com
John I feel very dumb. I just checked eBay to see what a used motor might cost and learned that the gear box is part of the motor. I thought that they were two separate things and that I could remove the motor from the jukebox and leave the gearbox in. I get it now. I have a lot to learn.

No problem, every day is a school day for me too! Gotta love fixing
stuff, eh?

John :-#)#

[s***@gmail.com]

John,
After about 200 plays the circuit breaker started popping. I tried my voodoo again with an external supply and it worked for about 40 plays--then the breaker started popping again.

I pulled it out and, without a load it was a hair over 2 amps.

I took the motor apart per your instructions. You were exactly, 100%, without any question, correct. I cleaned all the lose dust out and found an old razor blade in a parts drawer and worked with some magnifying goggles for about 20 minutes. Then I used a toothbrush to get anything left. Amps came down under .25 .

I just installed it into the machine and I'm amazed how FAST it loads and unloads the record!

Thankfully the other motor is drawing .25 because it looks too buried to remove.

John, I couldn't have done this without you and this thread.

Regards,
John

[John Robertson]

Post by s***@gmail.com
John,
After about 200 plays the circuit breaker started popping. I tried my voodoo again with an external supply and it worked for about 40 plays--then the breaker started popping again.
I pulled it out and, without a load it was a hair over 2 amps.
I took the motor apart per your instructions. You were exactly, 100%, without any question, correct. I cleaned all the lose dust out and found an old razor blade in a parts drawer and worked with some magnifying goggles for about 20 minutes. Then I used a toothbrush to get anything left. Amps came down under .25 .
I just installed it into the machine and I'm amazed how FAST it loads and unloads the record!
Thankfully the other motor is drawing .25 because it looks too buried to remove.
John, I couldn't have done this without you and this thread.
Regards,
John

Glad to help!

John :-#)#

[a***@gmail.com]

Post by John Robertson

Post by s***@gmail.com
John,
After about 200 plays the circuit breaker started popping. I tried my voodoo again with an external supply and it worked for about 40 plays--then the breaker started popping again.
I pulled it out and, without a load it was a hair over 2 amps.
I took the motor apart per your instructions. You were exactly, 100%, without any question, correct. I cleaned all the lose dust out and found an old razor blade in a parts drawer and worked with some magnifying goggles for about 20 minutes. Then I used a toothbrush to get anything left. Amps came down under .25 .
I just installed it into the machine and I'm amazed how FAST it loads and unloads the record!
Thankfully the other motor is drawing .25 because it looks too buried to remove.
John, I couldn't have done this without you and this thread.
Regards,
John

Glad to help!
John :-#)#
--
(Please post followups or tech inquiries to the newsgroup)
John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9
[phone] or Fax [phone] (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
www.flippers.com
"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."

Hi John,

I have an issue with a Rockola 484 with 11 VAC present at the gripper motor plug !!!
I believe it should be around 28VDC.
Would appreciate if you could give me a direction to look where this is supplied from :)

Regards
Stewart

Australia

[John Robertson]

Post by robert

Post by John Robertson

Post by s***@gmail.com
John,
After about 200 plays the circuit breaker started popping. I tried my voodoo again with an external supply and it worked for about 40 plays--then the breaker started popping again.
I pulled it out and, without a load it was a hair over 2 amps.
I took the motor apart per your instructions. You were exactly, 100%, without any question, correct. I cleaned all the lose dust out and found an old razor blade in a parts drawer and worked with some magnifying goggles for about 20 minutes. Then I used a toothbrush to get anything left. Amps came down under .25 .
I just installed it into the machine and I'm amazed how FAST it loads and unloads the record!
Thankfully the other motor is drawing .25 because it looks too buried to remove.
John, I couldn't have done this without you and this thread.
Regards,
John

Glad to help!
John :-#)#

Hi John,
I have an issue with a Rockola 484 with 11 VAC present at the gripper motor plug !!!
I believe it should be around 28VDC.
Would appreciate if you could give me a direction to look where this is supplied from :)
Regards
Stewart
Australia

Check for 28VDC at the main bridge rectifier. Then get out the
schematics and manual and follow the circuit diagrams to see where the
potential problem is. Might be that the circuit that shorts out the
series resistor (slows gripper down as it approaches each end of the
cycle) is the problem...

If you don't have the service manual - get it!

John :-#)#

[s***@gmail.com]

Hello John. You once helped me fix a 484 that I sold for a nice profit. I now own another--stupid me. It has about 6 issues that I'm pretty sure I can fix... One issue that I'm not sure about is that the gripper arm rises slightly before gripping to remove the record. I'm guessing that I need to adjust a cam? I sure would like your professional opinion before I start adjusting stuff... I've lubricated the main gears and I can see that the gripper gear isn't the first gear to turn immediately at end-of-record. Thoughts?
Happy Memorial day,
John